Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit | davidpapermill's commentslogin

Yes, it can.

Yes, Manchester has a good collection but the exhibits are sadly lacking on technical details, be warned.

For this reason, I always point out that toolmaking was an essential and often forgotten part of Manchester’s Industrial Revolution.

I'm afraid law and morality are two separate concepts. You make a good point.

I've heard something along the lines of "Claude is like a compiler: source code is the new object code, you don't look at that anymore" many times.

And I don't really think this is true. Compilers are usually deterministic, and whilst we can find edge cases, it's nothing like an AI agent writing all the code for you.

I think you have two choices, given the Claude is a code generator and not a compiler: (a) you review most or all of code to make sure it makes sense, or (b) you trust but verify via a strong test suite, potentially also created by Claude.

The problem with (a) is that you lose a lot of the speed-up. The problem with (b) is that you have no human oversight and the code may be incomplete, badly designed, or plain wrong.

Currently we review all code because correctness is extremely important to what we do, but that comes at a cost.

I don't know what the answer is here, in general. Does trust build over time? Do the models just get so good we can trust them to make zero mistakes?


Part of the value of LLMs and humans is nondeterminism. Pair nondeterministic output with strictly verified results (proper tests) and you can create a useful working system.

Humans can't build a system perfectly, and agents definitely can't. And agents (like humans) will build a different system every time even with the same prompt. Even if it's just trivial differences like array vs linked-list, there are still differences.

The value in having executable code is that it won't change its behavior unless you deliberately modify it. I don't think there are any shortcuts. Models will get smarter and smarter and make fewer mistakes, but you'll still want to produce real source code to execute because it's consistent (you can sell it as a product, set it and forget it, etc.), and most importantly:

running real code is orders of magnitude faster than having an AI either run the process "manually", or have it write the code out multiple times.


Thanks, that's really helpful.

What do you think happens in terms of testing/reviewing going forward? I'd really appreciate your thoughts on that.


If you have a product intended for humans, you're gonna need humans to do acceptance testing, just like now. All the software engineering principles you learned (did you learn them? now's as good a time as any!) are still just as applicable now as they were 10 years ago.

Keynote has probably the best UX of any software I’ve ever used.

> It would've been nice to reserve "AI" for superior human-like intelligence capable of genuine common sense and reasoning.

What would a frontier API have to be able to do to satisfy you?


Maybe just a very rigorous version of the Turing test? Modern LLMs can superficially simulate conversation but it's trivial to force them into revealing their non-human like intelligence.

They've been "patched" since but all models fail basic tests like "Should I walk or drive to the car wash which is 100 feet away" by recommending you walk.

So you'd just ask questions that require theory of mind, abstract and common sense reasoning, causal inference, learning novel rules, transferring knowledge novel situations, recognizing ambiguity, etc.


If an alien lands on Earth and learns English, would you deem it non-intelligent if you can tell it apart from a human in conversation?

I think we should consider slime mold intelligent, and realise that it's a spectrum. Path finding is AI. There are probably forms of intelligence we have yet to discover.


If an alien landed we could decide whether it seems to have a human-like intelligence or not. It could be incredibly intelligent but very non-human-like.

Can you give me one example that works on Claude right now?

I'm never sure whether this indicates "no reasoning present" or you've just hit an odd behaviour in the AI such that its reasoning fails. For example, you present a problem in a way that's dissimilar to the way problems are presented in its training set. That doesn't mean it's not reasoning, just it can only reason correctly in some circumstances.


The models are continually patched with training and post-training. All you have to do is find an area they haven't patched yet, and they'll be just as stupid. I run into deep technical examples every day where they fail in the most basic ways no human ever would.

I'm pretty sure most people building these models would admit they don't operate as human-like intelligences? It's baffling that anyone thinks they are.


Yes I agree, they’re an alien kind of intelligence.

But that doesn’t mean they don’t reason.


I get what you're saying but this is kind of a semantic game.

These LLM models/agents absolutely do not reason in the sense that humans do, so you're quietly redefining the word.

You can say of course decide to call them an "alien kind of intelligence" that "reasons" but you could just as reasonably say that calculators are an "alien" kind of intelligence that "reasons" about math differently than us.


And what stops what AIs do from being "reasoning"? What's the elusive magic fairy dust of reasoning that humans put into their napkin notes, but AIs neglect to put into their chain of thought scratchpads?

Do you have a RealReasoningBenchmark, perhaps, that can reliably tell apart that fake mass produced token-flavored AI reasoning from the real, organic, 100% natural human reasoning?


If you had access to a bunch identical copies of me that couldn't communicate with each other, you'd be able to find many questions I would give stupid answers to. I suspect I'd come out of it looking worse than an LLM.

How old does a child need to be before you think they have "human like intelligence"?

I would walk

Me too. At least it doesn't say I need to wash my car.

To answer for OP:

We are now calling text and image generators "intelligent" in the same way a spell checker is intelligent.

Whatever it's become, "AI" research started as a way to study digital neurology, or how to digitize a mind, not just how to generate data.

The Turing Test should have had a caveat, it needs to fool a, "non-stupid" person, and we still have not gotten even close to passing that version.


What exactly would a 'non-stupid' person do to catch the latest models on a Turing Test? Aside from being aware of AI 'tells' like em-dashes.

If this was true. I would repalce myself with ai that pretends to be me on slack.

my coworkers would know almost immediately if i did that.


> my coworkers would know almost immediately if i did that.

The same would happen if you were replaced by any random human.


But immitating others is about the only thing genAI does. Sometimes "others" is a 'programmer', sometimes "others" is an 'artist', but regardless, it still does it poorly.

that would be a silly test then

It sounds kind of like you made up a silly test then.

what test?

Not OP, but I'd settle for something that actually learns, instead of being a static pile of linear algebra. Pretending it learns because you change the input (context) doesn't count.

Can it produce a chart topping album if its given all the tools and the prompt "produce chart topping album" .

you might say almost no humans can do tht either but some human can but no ai can.


strawberry

I think a big question is whether any of these labs can produce a model that is _ahead_ of Anthropic and OpenAI.

A related question is how much they're dependent on the APIs of Anthropic and OpenAI to achieve their results - whether through distillation or other uses.

If these models are derivative of Anthropic/OpenAI I would expect performance to be more narrow and progress to be limited.


They dont need to be ahead on performance alone.

Its value per unit of currency spent.

Financials will ultimately drive decision making.

We are already seeing that more intelligence does not correlate with more revenue, for the firm purchasing tokens.

If I was OAI/Anthropic I'd be brown and yellow in the boxers.


We use US models for everything in practice, but we are looking at open-source models right now. So it may just be a turn of phrase hiding the reality. I can't imagine anywhere near 80% are relying on open-source as their primary models.

I don’t agree. I think businesses including SaaS are not primarily their tech, but are mostly composed of other functions: sales, marketing, customer success, product management, strategy etc. The value is actually more in these other components than in the code.


For some businesses yes, but for many no, the software and the infrastructure are all that matters and hopefully they don’t touch what works and don’t add features no one asked for.


Agree the functions aren't primarily their tech, but all of their activities ends up serving a business outcome, usually manifested in code (with much distilled or cut along the way). Marketing, PM, and strategy aren't directly shipping slides or docs to production - but they should get distilled into code that ships to fulfill the activity's productivity (decisions, features, etc.).

Sure, but code isn't the only barrier that's been lowered. A competent entrepreneurial team can also scale their sales, marketing and customer success workflows with AI.

I'm not saying business is easy now. I'm saying that a small team of smart people can do a whole lot more with the tools available to them. You still need strategy and vision (or the ability to copy someone else's playbook) but execution is a lot cheaper.


Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: